Andrews AB Cam

Gear Case (cams, idlers, cam cover)
chadu607
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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#16

Post by chadu607 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:55 am

Thanks everyone for your replies. I have been away this week riding the RK in West Virginia. Heading home this weekend. I showed the video to some of my uncles biker buddies here and got a wide range is opinions too.

I'm going to get back into the panhead when I get back.



chadu607
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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#17

Post by chadu607 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:44 pm

ok so the good news is that no wristpin issue. I removed the heads and before I went away for a week I put in the old stock cam. What I found is the springs are hitting the sides of the cover. the heads were refurbished with completely new internals and new seats and look new. just need to figure out how to deal with the springs hitting the covers now.

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#18

Post by Northman » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:25 pm

Don't know about the sides but thicker gaskets will raise the lids. Two thick ones adhered together with gaska cinch may be an option...?

Northman

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#19

Post by Andygears » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:36 pm

So the top collar is hitting the pan cover tin? You can try to get lower collars, if your heads were just done, maybe they were clearanced for more lift than you need, sometimes they do that with dished collars. Or the seats were done, (Dare I say it ) WRONG! And now he left you with trying to fit a pan cover on. A proper valve job with new seats, gets the valve stem to end up seated at the book location from the valve spring seat. There's a dimension for that, and if the top collars protrude too far, they hit! This has been talked up here before.
SO, IN THE FUTURE, ANYBODY GETTING A "Complete valve job" needs to bring their pan covers with them to pick up their heads. In front of the person that did the work, try the cover on the head, make sure there is some room above the top collars to line up the screw holes in the cover. The collar & stem being that high is not right for the rocker geometry also.
To fix your problem: lower collars I mentioned, different valves... Either with the keeper groove cut lower into the stem, shorter overall, or a larger head reseated lower/higher on the seat with less stem protrusion. Or new seats, thicker than what's in there.
That's the right ways to fix it.
But if the covers are thick steel or stainless and the collars don't hit much, you can use a ball peen hammer on the spot that got hit and make a bulge in the pan. I've used 2 hammers and heated the cover with a torch, the burnt spot is mostly hidden under the tanks. Now this will bend the cover lip and you have to straighten and flatten that, and the d-ring will have to be ground out to clear the bulge.
I know this is not fun, but your valve job should have been done better.

My 2 cents
Andygears

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#20

Post by chadu607 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:13 pm

I took the heads to a local guy I know that has several panheads and has been rebuilding them for many years. He took a good look at them and removed a valve for comparison to the original parts. He feels the seats are not too low. He put the covers on and slid them back and forth and there seems to be plenty of space... however each cover has the marks where they were hit. He feels maybe the marks are a lot older.
I did ask him to spin the springs around. I noticed that the flat end of the spring protruded out from under the collar and looked shiny to me. Once spun around the round end of the spring is at the cover side and does not protrude.
there are some light marks on the top of the covers where the rocker may be hitting too.. and i have the felt in there. Just waiting for a tool I need to fix one of the holes for the cover and will put them back on the bike and see if the problem went away or if i need to look further into it. I got a .125in cork gasket for the covers.

what is the proper way to measure spring height? The book seems vague. if I measure from the spring top (under the collar) to the head down the length of the spring I get about 1.45 in on each one. From the top of the collar to the head I get about 1.54 inches.
One thing we did was remove a valve and compare it to a valve that had been replaced and they are the exact size. Note. I didn't have this noise before the head work... but the work seems to be done right.

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#21

Post by awander » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:51 pm

The height of the valve stems is dependent on how deep the valve seats are cut into the head.

The seats are what would/could have changed when you got the heads worked on. Measuring the actual length of the valve won't tell you anything; I wouldn't expect the valves to be a different length.

It's how far they stick up above the head that is important here.

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#22

Post by chadu607 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:38 pm

i'm just trying to figure out the correct way to take the measurements. see attached.
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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#23

Post by Andygears » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:50 pm

In the 48-57 pan service manual, pg 75 top of stem to guide seat, 1.500-1.545 dim. If it protrudes farther there's a problem. The manual and the drawing is in the documentation section here.

When you compared valves, were the keeper grooves at exactly the same place? Stock HD valves I believe have the notch about 3/16 from the end, but some others are only 1/8. That's a full .06 thousandths from useable life of your valve seats.

And were the springs/collars hitting or not? If it's the rocker, thick gaskets or taller pans will quiet it down.

And don't get me started on why you were at your friend's, who knows about pans, and not the guy who you paid to put new seats in so you wouldn't have this problem!

My two cents
Andygears

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#24

Post by Bigincher » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:45 am

The only way I know of to properly measure valve stem projection is with the springs removed. A machinist friend made me a simple gauge that slides over the valve stem onto the valve guide, and has a step machined in the upper end, 1.50" on one side, 1.550" on the other. It's a simple "Go-No go" gauge.
The need to remove the springs gave me a reason to make a valve spring compression tool out of a c-clamp. Easy to make and works great. I can post photos if you like.

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#25

Post by chadu607 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:48 pm

thanks guys, Andygears, the place i took the heads to originally handed off to their machinist. I don't know who that machinist is and the shop isn't telling me. so if there is a problem i'd like to identify it before taking it back to them to send off to their machinist again.
in continuing to inspect the engine for the source of the knock i removed the cylinders last night and checked for movement in the connecting rods .. side to side and up down. also checked the wrist pin keepers.. all appear to be fine. so i'm going to put it all back together. I ground out the marks inside the covers too so if it is hitting it will make new marks. i also have thick gaskets incase the top of the pans are being hit. Hopefully i should know by the end if the day if the problem is fixed or not.

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#26

Post by 1962FLH » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:18 pm

Did you plan to run the AB cam before or after you had the shop do the work on your heads? If running the AB cam was an after thought than your heads most likely were not set up for that extra lift.

keeping our heads above water on the gulf coast.

John

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#27

Post by chadu607 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:49 pm

It was an afterthought. however I did look up the specs and according to the spec sheet the AB Cam should work with no additional work needed on the heads. Right before I left for vacation I replaced the AB with the stock cam to see if that was the issue. I found the noise was not as loud but still there.
If I understand this right, the cam should not change the spring height, just the depth the valve goes into the cylinder since the stem length doesn't change. The valve seat would determine how high the spring goes when the valve is closed. Otherwise the side where the pushrod contacts the rocker would go higher so this was the first place I looked for dinging on the covers.

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#28

Post by chadu607 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:12 am

To troubleshoot the knocking I was having in the Panhead I removed the heads and cylinders and double checked the connecting rods, wrist pin and keeper, checked the rings and took the heads to a local expert I know. He checked the valves and springs and it all seemed to be fine.
I did however spin the spring around because it looked like the end of the spring was hitting the pan covers as it was protruding out from under the collar. Also, I ground down the marks in the covers and glued in new felts. And I used an extra thick pan cover gasket.
Took me all afternoon to re-assemble but I do hear a difference. I don't hear the knocking. The front cylinder seems a little loud but not like before.

I'm going to see if my friend Larry the local expert can stop by and take a look at it now that it's running again. Maybe he can tell if something is wrong still, but overall it is a lot better than before.

http://www.60panhead.com/PanheadStart8-31-17.mp4

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#29

Post by Weedy » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:13 pm

sounds and looks good to me! but I am far from an expert! lol tim

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#30

Post by 58flh » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:07 pm

Chadu----Installed height must be kept in check,I have seen stock cams rub the springs on the lower corner of the covers//I ran into this on my flh & the problem was not installed height,but the aftermarket shiney thing I put on top of it.A .125 cork gasket compressed really wont help if the GUIDE is not sitting all the way home/essentially maybe olny .003 from landing squarely on the head.I found this on one with a stock cover & fixed the problem.Also its hard to hear at idle (if running solid tappets.)However I have heard some complaints on the AB with HYDS.The problem ocurred at operating temp & going at a steady pace down the pike.If the spring is rubbing ,turning it will buy ya 10-min. if anything at steam.Just my 2 what I have been thru on these fine machines!---Respectfully---Richie

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