Andrews AB Cam

Gear Case (cams, idlers, cam cover)
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chadu607
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Andrews AB Cam

#1

Post by chadu607 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:28 pm

Anyone running an AB Cam in their panhead? i'm trying to track down a loud noise in my engine since the top end rebuild. besides head rebuild/ machining and .050 pistons w/ cylinder work I only changed the CAM to AB from stock.
i have posted on classic panheads on facebook and got advice from timing to rod adjustments and did it all but still no good. The engine sounds like a hammer inside. My only other thought is maybe the AB Cam is causing it.

Here is what i have done to troubleshoot:
1 checked timing, its perfect, including point gap, spark plug gap at .023
2. re-installed the original solid lifters (hydraulic with solid conversion kit) that my dad used for many years.
3. re-adjusted rods several times for solid lifters (zero lash, spin easily).. rods are colony aluminum for panhead.
4. checked compression.. got about 100-120 psi last check per cylinder (cold). i'm about 200lbs and sometime i can't kick it past compression without jumping on it really hard.

yes there is felt in the pans and no i don't think the valves or rocker is hitting the pans.
Heads have been re worked by Retrocycle with new seats and valves/guides.. complete work.

Here you can hear it.. maybe audio not as good as standing by it.. sounds like a hammer on a pot.

http://www.60panhead.com/20170806_174943.mp4

i have posted this on facebook and got many responses but none fixes the issue. so i'm considering maybe the AB cam is causing it. This is my first Panhead and the only one i have heard running in real life so i have nothing to compare it to except online...which is not the same.

At this point i'm thinking of putting the original CAM back in to see if the problem goes away, but wanted to see what other experience if they used this same AB CAM in their pans. According to what i have found, there is no engine work needed to use the AB cam so it should not be lifting the valves too much.

some have suggested that maybe i'm hearing detonation.. not sure.

thanks in advance.

Chad - 1960 Panhead Duo Glide FL.



Andygears
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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#2

Post by Andygears » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:56 pm

2 things I would try to help diagnose. First, if it's detonation and you retard the spark while it's running, it should go away. And if not. It sounds low and cam related but could be wrist pin, anyway pull two clips, front first, from the pushrod tubes, hook a bungee or something to hold the covers up and run it, yes some oil will come out, but the lifter action will be visible and noise increased/ decreased at the culprit. When you figure which one, pull that lifter block out. I have never been a fan of the insert/ solid/ hydraulic lifter converts. True solid lifters with an adjuster and solid non adjustable pushrods are better in my humble opinion. The inserts seem to loosen up n the lifter body on the conversions. And maybe your old lifters on the new cam popped a roller which can make a mess in the gearcase.

Just my 2 cents
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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#3

Post by Buddhahoodvatoloco » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:03 pm

yes there is felt in the pans and no i don't think the valves or rocker is hitting the pans.

chadu607
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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#4

Post by chadu607 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:04 pm

I removed the Andrews AB Cam and put in the old one. Stock FL cam. Same noise but not as loud. I adjusted the rods again for zero lash, easy spin. My next move is to look into the wristpin. It uses a spiral clip that you work around into the slot to lock in the pin. I also moved the timer back and the sound is more pronounced at full advance but doesn't go away completely as I move the timer. I used the screwdriver stethoscope trick and held it to parts of the engine like the tappet blocks, heads and rods. I could not make out any differences.
This engine has newly machined heads and cylinders and new pistons. It made this noise from the first time I started it up. That was with sifton solid lifters. I got new panhead rods from colony because the ones that were in there were for a shovelhead (i'm told) that had a smaller ball no the top. I then went back to the original lifters that had that conversion kit installed some time ago. The noise was reduced a lot; enough that i felt comfortable to take it out on the road for a few tests and then to a local bike night about 10 miles away. I took it to the bike night with no problems. on the ride home i had a fuel blockage and the engine cut out. I got moving again but it took a lot of kicking to start up once i got the gas flowing, then I got home and parked it. A couple days later I tried to start it and when it finally did startup that noise was back. So i went over the timing, rod adjustments, spark plug gaps and now it starts up much easier except for the noise.
I hope it is not a wristpin. that would really suck.

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#5

Post by jbuliwyf » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:15 pm

I don't know if it matters for solid lifters but hydraulic lifters have an oil hole that lines up with the oil feed in the block. It's worth a look.

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#6

Post by Andygears » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:06 am

Ok, for a wrist pin try shorting or disconnecting one plug at a time, the noise should change on the bad cylinder.

Andygears

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#7

Post by awander » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:24 am

Andygears wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:06 am
Ok, for a wrist pin try shorting or disconnecting one plug at a time, the noise should change on the bad cylinder.

Andygears
Shorting a plug? OK.

Disconnect one? Not a great idea, unless you don't like your coil...

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#8

Post by Andygears » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:19 pm

Andy , can you burn out a coil by disconnecting one plug wire? I hadn't heard that before but if it's happened to you, I believe you. I once had a hard starting shovel that I was riding and started running on 1 cyl., looked down, saw a plug wire hanging, took a deep breath and plugged it back in, luckily didn't get bit
But if it's a bad idea....

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#9

Post by awander » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:45 pm

I haven't had it happen to me, and I have been guilty of pulling a plug wire while the bike was running.

Damage won't happen immediately, Andy, but it certainly could.

The problem is that the spark plug (high tension) wire coil on the bikes is not tied to anything else except the plug wires-there is no internal "ground" connection from this coil.

Both ends of the HT coil have a very high (14000V or so) voltage on them during the spark.

With both spark plugs properly connected, the flow of current will be from one end of the HT coil, through the 1st spark plug, across the gap, to the bike ground, through the bike ground to the other spark plug, across the second plug gap, and back to the other side of the coil.

With one spark plug connected, and one disconnected, the current will flow as described above, but with no second spark plug connected, it will try to get from ground back to the coil anyway, and internal sparking can occur which could burn up the coil.

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#10

Post by Andygears » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:27 pm

Makes sense, thanks, didn't know that.

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#11

Post by Northman » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:45 am

No one likes to hear that......ugh.
Well I had something simular happen Once. The cylinders were not straight or in line to the base. They were honed...but not set up on a boring bar first to true the bore. So what happened is that the top of the cylinder bore was off to one side, that combined with being hoged out as far as they were (don't remember what size this was many years ago) and the higher compression piston was actually tapping the head. (Only one piston) Hope yours is not the case.....
Northman

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#12

Post by james » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:28 am

I had a noise like that after installing Colony Aluminum push rods with an engine reseal.
Tried to isolate the noise. I took the push rods out and sanded down the ends with 220 wet sand paper. New parts, first suspect.
Noise went away. I since installed steel push rods. Your noise sounds up high like where the push rods meet the rockers. Will it work for you, hope so.
Jim M

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#13

Post by Northman » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:45 pm

One more thought occured to me was a tapped roller. Again speculating....

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#14

Post by panheadrider1961 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:45 pm

what kind of piston to valve clearance ? compensator tight? loose sounds like rod hammer, and Northman,s call would pull lifter tappets and check needle bearings if they are old, and are the rockers oiling ?, look at head gasket may spray soapy water check for leaks . did you check rod play when you had it apart ? new top end new pressure on bottom end

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Re: Andrews AB Cam

#15

Post by dablaze » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:13 pm

yes there is felt in the pans and no i don't think the valves or rocker is hitting the pans.
Feel the tops, see if you have created a small bump, if your heads were just redone, that's what changed and unfortunately would be where you should look. I have seen a rocker that was reworked and a touch of weld was hitting.

Craig

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