Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

S&S carburetor isues
panhandler
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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#16

Post by panhandler » Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:18 pm

Thanks for all the input so far....I'm gonna try each suggestion until I find the sweet spot....please keep the suggestions coming.

dbanana: you're right on with my troubles. I had the same thing done to the intake valves on my old oem heads and had no problems.....Yes, it's exactly like it is flooded.....When it died on me in traffic in mexico at sea level, I had to push it off the highway, and it just wouldn't respond at all. After about 40 minutes I pulled the plugs which were clean and dry; put them back in kicked it over and it fired!


regards,
Keith



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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#17

Post by 58bob » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:34 pm

Panhandler,
I didnt fully read al your posts. My bad.
The (very?) hot start issue you have is also something I've experienced only about twice.
I have about 800 miles on a new motor and dont run it during our hot and humid summers, not while running in anyway. A couple of time I got caught in traffic, whatever and it did get very hot. I stopped then tried to restart, no go! In fact bringing it up to TDC then kicking just left me hanging up in the air, it sort of hydraulic locked on compression if you know what I mean. Was like standing on a big spring! Thats never happened ever! I had to wait till it cooled then have a go which worked.
When stopped the heat off the motor is huge, my gas tanks vent ok sucking air in but not out so when I stop you can hear them hissing, open a gas cap and it releases big time. This is showing me when stationary there is a lot of heat build up going on with no air movement to cooler her down. And the carb is right in the middle of the whole plot! So, I'm going to try the 1" spacer, it might work in stopping heat transfer from the manifold, but the residual heat given off by the motor just acts on that carb body like a heat sink, plus the fuel in the lines heating up, so I think it all comes together overal to make up that hot starting issue.

PS: I run a powerarc ignition which only starts at TDC on No.1 cylinder, so yes lots of kicking if it doesnt fire first go as you wind it through to find No.1 again!

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#18

Post by panhandler » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:36 am

58Bob, I have had that exact same scenario of 'spring standing' a few times and as recent as last week when I got back from a 30 mile run. No idea what is causing that, but running a belt primary thot maybe had something to do with that and heat. I haven't experienced the gas pressure build up, I have only put about 4K on the bike in 6 years. As far as the spacer, I believe that S&S makes a one inch aluminum spacer to move the carb out from the 5 gallon tanks, but you will probably want the phenolic (like a bakelite) 3/4" spacer which is for slowing heat transfer to the carb from the manifold. I have two sandwiched together.

I also realize that the geometry has changed in going from the oem T intake which was a long trip for the fuel mix, to the very short Shovel Y intake and makes me think that I also need to change starting habits in view of that....dunno but I'm gonna try different methods suggested here over the next while and see.

regards,
Keith

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#19

Post by itsRICH » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:05 am

(haven't read previous posts yet) so not sure if someones said this already: Ive found that 1/4-1/2 throttle cracked will allow it to start at pretty much anytime I have trouble kicking mine, have you checked the accel. pump, mine was set to soon and causing mine to flood so whenever I gave it a little throttle it was activiating. Ive also have had to take the drain plug out of the carb to drain the fuel and it would start first kick after that. but only had to do that once. Mine is also an aftermarket pan, with electronic ignition with dual super coils

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#20

Post by Bigincher » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:37 am

panhandler wrote:. ..... I have only put about 4K on the bike in 6 years. ....
This thread keeps getting better and better!

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#21

Post by Cotten » Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:21 pm

Keith!

But back to diagnosing issues, I really must ask as politely as possible: Just how did you test for vacuum leaks?
Please note that bubble-testing often displays leaks that elude all other traditional tests, as shown by these casting porosities found in S&S manifolds.
S&SPORE.jpg
S&Spore2.jpg
Certainly you may conjure a way of "tuning around" minor leaks, but the extra heat produced by extra air will always be an issue, costing fuel, and performance, to mask it.

If indeed you bubble-tested, I must then ask if you used a constant, regulated supply of air.
Many folks have failed to find existing leaks using tire or mattress pumps, shop-vacs, etc.

Just don't want you to chase your tail,

....Cotten
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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#22

Post by 1962FLH » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:01 pm

When all else is correct. I’m just trying to be helpful here and I only mention this because I don’t know your level of tuning expertise. One thing that can help with starting is making sure the RPM’s at idle is set to manufactures specs. I have seen many bikes that sound cool running low RPM’s but it makes for HARD SRARTING and excessive oil consumption.
Respectfully,
John

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#23

Post by panhead » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:35 pm

Please stay to the topic.

http://www.hydra-glide.com/rules.php

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#24

Post by panhandler » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:49 pm

Cotton, I do confess that I didn't bubble test, I don't have the proper equipment/supplies to do that. My attempts at fabricating a cover plate showed more leaks around the plate; if there is someone that I can purchase a bubble tester from, please let me know. I know it's shade tree mechanics to you, but after a good 40 mile run, I did the carb cleaner spray around the manifold clamps, and there was no change in idle or running. when the spray happened to hit the throttle shaft, the rpms dropped dead, so it is indicating when there is a leak. In a perfect world I would love to have one of the testers. Porosity of the metal itself is yet another possibility, knowing how casting is not what it was. My question to you is this; if there was indeed a leak, would it not show up in the running of the bike on the highway and the hot idling of the bike? As I said, the plugs show a good burn in both cylinders.

I certainly haven't ruled out a leak, I'm just not convinced that it is that.....and as you will have seen from some of the other posters they did bubble test and have the same problems. Sorry to sound stubborn, not meant to be.
As far as 62FLH's post, yes, I do keep my idle up a little higher than the low thump, as I agree with you that it is not good for the bottom end; appreciate your input.

regards,
Keith

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#25

Post by Cotten » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:35 pm

Keith!

Minor leaks around the plate mean little as long as your regulator holds 10-15psi upon the rest of the assembly. I can provide either a testplate or a simple rubber stopper (liberty@npoint.net), but a little more patience with your own contrivance should do.

The whole point of bubble-testing over spraying-stuff-while-its-running is that it doesn't have to be running.
That eliminates a lot of variables, and lets you calmly take time and care to find exactly where a problem may be, and even a sense of its size.
Spraying stuff on a running machine only hints at huge leaks when you are lucky. Bubbles are absolute, as absolute vacuum (at sealevel, etc.) is equivalent to ~14.7psi. Sometimes it takes a half a minute for superfine bubbles to make a "blister" around a fissure,
MANBLSTR.jpg
but then you can fix it.

Your throttleshaft leak is certainly an issue in itself!
I'm clueless about S&Ss.

....Cotten
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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#26

Post by panhandler » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:05 pm

Thanks Cotten, I found that mbskeam on this forum makes the rig and lives in WA state, which is close to me so sent him a pm. Failing that i'll let you know....where I live its damn hard to find anything more tech than a bag of sunflower seeds. As far as the leak at the throttle shaft, I told that to the tech guy at S&S. His reply was 'that's because there is no bushings on the throttle shaft and unless you force air or liquid into there, it isn't a problem'....am I getting too old?

regards,
Keith

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#27

Post by Cotten » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:20 pm

No, Keith!

I'd say that "tech" was too young.

...Cotten

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#28

Post by panhandler » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:42 pm

none of the Es have bushings around the throttle shafts to create a seal, but with a moving part like the shaft, I don't know how you would successfully seal it and allow for movement. I guess the designers/engineers of the carb know something I'm missing.

regards,
Keith

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#29

Post by Cotten » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:54 am

Keith!

It would seem they expect you to throw it away when it becomes worn enough to suck air.
I'm sure bushings could be fashioned to repair it.

.....Cotten

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#30

Post by 58flh » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:21 pm

GUYS!----When the shaft wears-out,& it takes ALONG TIME to wear one out//S&S sells a new one you can install & usually THAT takes care of the oversized VACUUM-LEAK!--Now your wondering about the bore it rides in???Does that get worn to???--I have in all my yrs. dealing with S&S carbs. of various models & NEVER HAVE I had to make room for a bush!---The olny time I machined a set of bushings for a S&S was for an old S&S-B carb.It was given to me with various other goodies & all parts were in a 3-gallon metal can that had sand in the bottom!--Now I believe kids playing with a bros carb. wiped the shaft out.--I cleaned it & you could see scrape marks on the shaft & bores!-(play-sand it was).So I made bushings & rebuilt that B & I love that B better then my E!--It has no Accel-pump--so I drilled out the airbleed & tapped the hole & put a 120-mainjet in it /& that acted as if there was a pump-shooter!--I still run the B on the Ol-Ladies shortster!/What a KICK-ASS CARB. The L is GREAT TO!.----Respectfully---RICHIE

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