Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

S&S carburetor isues
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panhandler
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Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#1

Post by panhandler »

I've been doing some extensive reading on the Knowledge base and other areas here concerning the above topic and the S&S Super E appears to be a very common link amongst each of us with Hot starting problems. Cold kicks don't seem to be a problem...the problems arise after a longer ride and shutdown.

Now I've taken into account those threads and posts that have eliminated all other sources of problems thereby indicating that the E may very well be the culprit. I know some folks are very happy with their E's, some have had probs with Bendix's and SU's, but I'd like to keep this on topic of the S&S E.

There are many almost identical complaints, however, there are virtually no updates to any of the threads on whether or not, or how, the problem was solved. Most that I read indicated they were going to go to a different carb. Many said the CV40 was good, some said the S.U, some said Bendix, some went back to the Linkert.

As you can see from some of my Threads, I've had the same problem, have eliminated all other suspects, so am very curious as to any feedback. I eliminated my idle stalls by drilling out the roll pins to 7/32 in the flyweights, but the starting probs still exist.

How about input from any successful cases...

regards,
Keith



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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#2

Post by Bigincher »

My example:

1977 FLH, S&S 84-inch Hot Setup, dual-plugged heads/Dyna S ignition, Andrews cam (model escapes my memory at the moment), S&S Super E carb, and other really neat stuff....
I can tell you just one thing-- when starting hot, it wants ZERO throttle, not even the threat of throttle. Don't even think about it !

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#3

Post by Cotten »

Keith!

Any carb in good order should be successful.
Linkerts are just the most natural.

In your reading, did you perhaps stumble upon manifold or vacuum leaks?

....Cotten

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#4

Post by panhandler »

That is the way mine is after short run or start/idle/stop. No throttle and usually starts on one kick...I see that most of us don't have a problem with short runs/or warm up and starts....it's the long run/shut off that is getting us, and it appears that the E may be the problem. Those that have previously posted on this problem have all types of different setups; so I'm looking to see if anyone has found a solution, including round filing the E and going to a different carb.

Keith

Cotton, yup mentioned many times, but I am looking for those who have ruled out all variables and think the carb is the problem....if you read the amount of guys that have the same suspect, then I think if it walks like a duck......a lot of us are pulling our hair out looking for an answer.

Keith

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#5

Post by Cotten »

Keith!

If you haven't bubble-tested, you haven't ruled out a very important variable.

.....Cotten

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#6

Post by Bigincher »

panhandler wrote:That is the way mine is after short run or start/idle/stop. No throttle and usually starts on one kick...I see that most of us don't have a problem with short runs/or warm up and starts....it's the long run/shut off that is getting us, and it appears that the E may be the problem. Those that have previously posted on this problem have all types of different setups; so I'm looking to see if anyone has found a solution, including round filing the E and going to a different carb.

Keith

Cotton, yup mentioned many times, but I am looking for those who have ruled out all variables and think the carb is the problem....if you read the amount of guys that have the same suspect, then I think if it walks like a duck......a lot of us are pulling our hair out looking for an answer.

Keith
Sounds like you want a definitive solution handed to you on a silver platter.
Perhaps you mis-read my post; nowhere did I mention anything about "short run" or "quick start" or anything other than a Hot Start.

You keep avoiding Cottens questions about bubble testing or leak testing. Until you do that, you're wasting people's time.
I'm done. And I have all my hair and a sweet running motorcycle.

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#7

Post by panhandler »

I don't think I'm avoiding anyone's question....I've leak tested the manifold and carb. I'm trying to find a solution to a problem. If you don't have a problem then the only time your wasting is yours. Continue on with your 'sweet' ride and maybe leave the thread to those of us that are trying to find a solution without being rude about it.

Keith

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#8

Post by 58bob »

Panhandler,
Can you tell me what size motor you have and what are the intermediate and main jet sizes?
Mine came with 0295 inter and a 72 main
Dropped to 028 and 70, so far, main might go down to 68.

I to had issues similar. many people like to run S&S E's 'fat', ie: a bit on the rich side to be 'safe'. I found that a load of bollocks really, and a big proportion of my starting troubles.....I do stress this in my application only. Once i had learned a lot about the carb I was able to determine my jetting much better.
I went down 1 intermediate size and it went from needing 4 pumps cold no choke and fire, to needing choke and 2 or 3 squirts.
It was a different bike to start and ride.
Plug colour confirmed that to.
As has been stated by others I just do not touch that throttle when hot, it just will not start, period!
The trick I have found and am just mastering is when its still quite warm but is also getting cooler. Does it need a squirt? Initially I was to scared to try, knowing the dreaded no-start was lurking close by.
But if is dead on 1 or 2 kicks i give it 1 to 2 squirts and bingo fires-a-burnin'.
If its just warm a bit, then a small amount of choke is required to.
Sorry for rambling on but thats the tricky part I've found.....the inbetween.
Cold or hot no issues really.

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#9

Post by Bigincher »

Panhandler, you asked for other member's "successful solution", so I gave you my example. If you don't want honest answers and opinions from personal experience, don't ask.
I think maybe the S&S is over your head and you should go ahead and toss it. And why not stop by the office and fill out a Hurt-Feeling Report while you're at it.
I've got far more important issues in life than to listen to you complain about the help you get. Good luck with your motorcycle.

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#10

Post by 58flh »

I found a solution to my long-ride & gas-up & go starting ritual!----You notice S&S stress about the 1-inch spacer !-(you need this-As the problem for hot starts I found is ,The routing of your gas line!-Insulate that between the jugs with another hose wrapped on top.The Carb. is hard to fire when your gas is boiling!.Im running the E with factory jetting!--I found theres no need for MORE main as a stock 74-incher dont need it!.Also I found that the foam-filter is junk I use a k&n pleated type its less restrictive!--(ever notice when you drop the cover & filter--1-kick & shes lit-up???).So I have written -up about some of the culprits in the K-Base about the float that im not going to type again,its in there.My E starts-up cold NO-ENRICHNER!--I have the pump set to dribble & 3-squirts &-3primer & 1-Hot--shes on!--You dont need that enrichner until november -December/IT SUMPS ALOT of fuel.When dead hot TOUCH NOTHING just kick her thru & shes running!.NONE of this is valid unless your sure of no VACUUM-LEAKS!--& suprisingly when I work on a customers bike Thats always a culprit!--I bubbletest 3-4 times in 4-months--You be surprised what you find!Sometimes its a 1/4-turn on the clamp!,Others its nothing!--Theres alot of movement between the barrels,& thats every day,You are going to find a leak at some point!.----Respectfully---Richie

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#11

Post by dbanana »

Bigincher... ease up man!

panhandler... My super E gave me the same problem that you are talking about. I made my own tester, and using a sunlight soap and water mixture my intake has absolutely no leaks. (tested many times)

I might add that thanks to Cotton's repeated warnings, I found a cover screw hole through into the intake before the rebuild. :D

I am in Nova Scotia and our weather is usually on the cooler side. Engine is stock '74 with a .020 over bore.

My cold start is one twist of the throttle, enricher full on, 4 prime kicks, then key on... starts every time.

Hot start,( as in long ride then stop long enough for gas)... roll throttle full open slowly, 4 kicks with throttle full open,then throttle full off, key on starts every time.

I tried going down from a .0295 intermediate to a .028 to solve this issue.. but it was too lean.

Other than the hot starting issue... (which is no issue if I follow this procedure ),the bike runs perfect... pulls hard,and the plugs are a perfect light tan color.

I will also try insulating the fuel line like Richie says and see if it helps.

Let us know when you find what works for you.

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#12

Post by Bigincher »

dbanana wrote:Bigincher... ease up man!..........
Okay, your right. I got a little grumpy there momentarily, not really my nature.
Apologies to the Board.

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#13

Post by panhandler »

@dbanana, 58bob, 58flh........thanks for the positive input. I've run this carb for 21 years, it used to run fine, and yes, when it's hot, I give it no gas, just kick and she fires right up. I just recently did a major overhaul on it. I'm running stock 74, 9:1 comp wiseco's, STD single plug (shovel intakes with S&S intake man.) OEM a/c cover w/K&N filter, Andrews J, Karata 8mm belt, aluminum solids, aftermarket auto adv. (which I just dialled in, it's new, but still a POS). True duals with stock head pipes/squish pipes and Paughco fishtail mufflers. For the jets, I'm at 2000 feet and run 28/68 which seems to give me a good burn. As I said, I've solved the idling problem by installing larger roll pins in the weights.

Richie, I followed your advice, re: the float pin and needle. I run two spacers between man and carb for clearance from the tanks. I also turned down the fuel pump setting.I run a standard rubber fuel line between the top of the jugs under the tanks, have a pingel petcock and inline, and I've just installed a larger rubber hose over the line because I thot maybe I'm getting vapour lock. Haven't run it yet.

I went from my stock heads to STDs in 2008 and that seems to be the start of my problems. I thot that it was an intake prob with that shovel intake setup but it doesn't test out positive. I've tried both Viton ORings and now am using the wide rubber band and nylon spacers.

Here's the way I have always started cold: gas on, enrichener full on, ignition, 3-5 kicks and it fires up. Turn off enrichener and set throttle til warm.

Short run hot: Gas on, ignition, one kick and it fires.

Long run hot, sits for longer than about 15 mins.....one squirt, ignition, kick and fires up.

Cold and short run starts haven't really changed. It's the long run, then sitting, that has.....now I have tried with one squirt and kick, and no squirt and kick and she is just a bear to fire. After kicking the crap out of it, and usually sitting on my ass for a half hour she fires eventually. I ran a Super B a long time ago on it and found that both of these are very touchy carbs and easy to flood. On the highway and around town, she runs fine, lots of power, smooth.....it's just that time when I want to stop for a bite to eat and wonder all thru my meal if it's gonna start.

appreciate the input..

regards.
Keith

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#14

Post by old.wrench »

panhandler,
The carb tuning suggestions that 58bob pointed out for "E" carbs is good. S&S sells big carbs designed to deliver a lot of fuel. More is not always better :) . If the accelerator pump on your "E" is working properly, every time you roll the throttle it's gonna squirt gas, even if your motor doesn't want it. I went through the same issues (including hot-start problems) and the same learning curve with an "E" on my shovelhead. If your motor is close to stock (like 74" c.i.d., stock or near-stock grind cam like a "J"), you'll probably benefit by tightening up on the hole size in the jets. Experiment with the accelerator pump too, try shutting it down completely, and then work your way up. Good Luck!

Geo.

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Re: Hard Hot Starting and S&S E's

#15

Post by dbanana »

panhandler wrote:
I went from my stock heads to STDs in 2008 and that seems to be the start of my problems. I thot that it was an intake prob with that shovel intake setup but it doesn't test out positive. I've tried both Viton ORings and now am using the wide rubber band and nylon spacers.

Here's the way I have always started cold: gas on, enrichener full on, ignition, 3-5 kicks and it fires up. Turn off enrichener and set throttle til warm.

Short run hot: Gas on, ignition, one kick and it fires.

Long run hot, sits for longer than about 15 mins.....one squirt, ignition, kick and fires up.

Cold and short run starts haven't really changed. It's the long run, then sitting, that has.....now I have tried with one squirt and kick, and no squirt and kick and she is just a bear to fire. After kicking the crap out of it, and usually sitting on my ass for a half hour she fires eventually. I ran a Super B a long time ago on it and found that both of these are very touchy carbs and easy to flood. On the highway and around town, she runs fine, lots of power, smooth.....it's just that time when I want to stop for a bite to eat and wonder all thru my meal if it's gonna start.

appreciate the input..

regards.
Keith
mine used to start basically just like you are describing before the engine job... and hot starts were no problem.

I had to replace the heads, and my indy that did the work on the ones I bought had to use shovel intake valves because of the wear in the seats. He said this used to be a common practice, and although it would not increase performance, it would cause no problems as long as they had proper clearance.

That was the only change that was made.

After my cold and warm starts didn't change... just the hot starts. ( the times when everyone is saying you want no throttle at all )

It's like I have to start it as if it was flooded.

The jetting in the carb was the same then as it is now... and it works perfect except the hot starts.

I wondered if the increase in the intake was causing my problem as well.

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