Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

Rotor vane grooves are smaller than cam drive dogs

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Holtvintage
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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#16

Post by Holtvintage »

Here's what my flat side oil pump measured - vane groove is approximately .1195 , vanes are 3 @ .1185 and 1 @ .1175 . Cam dogs are a whopping .2266 on one and. 2263 on the other. I guess my next step is to contact Anderws and see what they say . Thanks for the feedback! I will post their reply.
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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#17

Post by Pascal »

Let us know how they respond!
Funny how some makers don't accept mistakes (noticed by others) on their work thinking they're God..
I noticed the same attitude by some users of american iron forums..even if confronted with proof..

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#18

Post by Frankenstein »

Thanks for the pics. I see now that it's the earlier/later rotor, no valve built in.
I noticed the flattened edge to the slot in the rotor in the first pic. I'm curious, do all for openings have that same flattened spot, or just 2?
DD

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#19

Post by mark59 »

I had the same troubles with an ACF rotor and a new set of andrews cams, i suspect the cam to be out of spec, clearanced the rotor. side note the andrews cams had inboard journals a couple thou undersized, sent them back no questioned asked and they replaced the set. checked cam timing with AFCs fixture, half case with pinion side flywheel and shaft with attached degree wheel and 4 dial indicators, found front exhaust to be 20 some odd degrees off from timing marks, moved cam a tooth to get it fairly close.

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#20

Post by Holtvintage »

I spoke with the service department at Andrews today. Overall it was a pleasant experience. The rep was easy to talk to and not judgemental BUT he looked up the blue print and said it is speced at .224 with a variance of 3 thou. I know, I know that sounded like a ton variance so I asked if he meant 3 ten thou but he assured me that he meant .003 . So if mine measures. 2264 it is still within their range. He said this is the first time he has ever heard of this issue. So my plan is to have the rotor relieved to accommodate the cam. ,,

Mark59,
When you cut your rotor, how much over the cam dog dimension did you go? Im guessing .0007 to maybe a thou? Thanks

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#21

Post by Holtvintage »

Frankenstein wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:14 pm
Thanks for the pics. I see now that it's the earlier/later rotor, no valve built in.
I noticed the flattened edge to the slot in the rotor in the first pic. I'm curious, do all for openings have that same flattened spot, or just 2?
DD
I will try to get some more pictures if it might answer your question

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#22

Post by Pascal »

Maybe a silly question, but if you'd alter the rotor to accept both vanes AND cam-dogs, wouldn't that remove the hardened outerlayer of the rotor?
Or are you planning to releave and reharden the rotor afterwards?
The vanes are hardened, I can imagine them to bounce inside the grooves and damage them if left unhardened..

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#23

Post by Frankenstein »

Good point, I take care to engage the dogs in the original, hardened slot. the vanes themselves are indeed hardened, but obviously run in oil :D Typical bearing doctrine is to have a hardened surface run on a softer surface, as in bronze bushings on steel shafts, etc. Don't have enough miles on my conversions to see if that holds, but I'm not too worried. Even if the vanes do "cock" somewhat in the slot, which wear patterns on old vanes with many years on them indicate, the cocking action will still effect a seal in the slot and maintain oil pressure. The vanes do move in and out minutely on every rotation so there shouldn't be a tendency to get "stuck" in a wear pattern. At least, that's how I rationalized it to myself. And to be honest, the bikes I mounted these pumps on are sunny day bikes and will probably never rack up 100's of thousands of miles. A flathead that's going to get pounded needs lots of oil and piston squirters. The 4 vane is just a compromise. They are friend's bikes and I will certainly know if a problem ever should develop, (and they always expect a lifetime warranty on all work :D ).
What Paul Freibus never mentioned in his advertising is that , yes, he may have used this pump mod on his land speed record bikes, but he modified the bikes with oil seals on the mainshaft feed to create a no leak seal to maximize pressure and minimize leaks so he could maintain pressure/flow to his piston squirters. Plus, he was building for the short haul, not thousands of miles of trouble free riding.
The real fix for a BTSV is the gearotor pump, modified return pump, piston squirters, and ULR heads to help remove the "Hot spot" in the combustion chamber that causes BTSV's to burn up in the first place. The Sportster pump is viable alternative, but I had difficulty keeping that conversion oil tight. I ran them for years and they kept the motor happy, but sealing them to the cases was problematic. I had a couple that sealed well, but my daily runner wasn't one of them. And I hate a bike that piddles. :D
DD

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#24

Post by Frankenstein »

Don't cut the rotor, grind down the dogs! you might cut through the case hardening on the rotor. Fix the bad part. The andrew's cam is made of hard enough steel that you don't need to worry about breaking through any case hardening. Just my 2 cents.
DD
As I measured, stock clearance dogs to slot was .004".
.216 dogs,
.220 slot
no perceptible wear at points of measurements. You want a little slop there if you're ever going to get the pump lined up on the dogs when you mount it!
Last edited by Frankenstein on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#25

Post by RooDog »

Notice Paul's oil pump....
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Here the pristine engine and bike are on display at the 2007 Davenport Swap Meet straight from Bonneville.
With USA Fluid Saltproofing it doesn't even look like it's ever been on or even near the salt.

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#26

Post by Frankenstein »

Oh, and by the way, he also played with Gearotor pump parts in the standard body! We had several long discussions about oil over the years.

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#27

Post by Holtvintage »

Pascal wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:49 am
Maybe a silly question, but if you'd alter the rotor to accept both vanes AND cam-dogs, wouldn't that remove the hardened outerlayer of the rotor?
Or are you planning to releave and reharden the rotor afterwards?
The vanes are hardened, I can imagine them to bounce inside the grooves and damage them if left unhardened..
I thought about only removing material in the "dog interface " area. Not a complete pass through vane groove. I understand your point concerning hardening. As bad as the groove is galled i wonder how hard it is?

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#28

Post by mark59 »

Mark59,
When you cut your rotor, how much over the cam dog dimension did you go? Im guessing .0007 to maybe a thou? Thanks
I simply polished rotor surface lightly til I had a slip fit, vanes and rotor had enough clearance to mesh snug but not bind. my guess would be a thou or so.
Frankenstien, I am using the VT Cycle heads with 4 vane pump and piston oilers, this build will have a sidehack after break in and hope these mods improve wear on top end.

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#29

Post by kitabel »

I've never seen any significant wear to either surface, I would guess that when the engine is running there is no sliding contact at all, simply pressure between the driver (tangs) and driven (rotor) components caused by oil resistance.
The only failures: one broken tang, but still running. Never seen both tangs broken.

Rather disappointed to see high dollar bits so poorly finished (in addition to the dimensional error).

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Re: Oil feed pump Rotor and cam dogs interference

#30

Post by Frankenstein »

As Ktabel noted, I've never seen a worn rotor slot either. You might just try a file to the rotor in a non sensitive area to test hardness. Just for curiosity's sake.
Mark, I think your build will probably do just fine. I am totally amazed by the difference in combustion burn that the ULR heads made. The traditional hot spot where my Pistons always died, just isn't there with those heads. Good luck.
DD

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